tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post934128259167121042..comments2024-03-22T02:15:56.280-07:00Comments on Jersey Jazzman: HoLa Hailers Have a Hard Haul Hatin' on Hoboken HighDukehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16535645107179796099noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post-32109455155468487242014-03-31T20:33:11.872-07:002014-03-31T20:33:11.872-07:001) my statement was meant to cover a number of peo...1) my statement was meant to cover a number of people who commented about my post-- including you but not exclusive to you. Do you prefer to be referenced as "Duke"? I did not find a name on your profile. <br />2) I agree there are a number of other measures to look at in terms of "school effects" and SAT score is certainly not the only measure available. There is graduation rate, state test scores, violence and vandalism reports, as well as rankings by independent news organizations. I do not disagree that linear regression using NJ high schools adds to the conversation. <br />Your multiple regression model does not paint a particularly good picture either. As I read it, the HHS composite SAT scores are close to what would be expected based on income levels of a statewide cohort (slightly above, I am assuming not statistically significant by eyeballing your chart). What then is the added value of the formal educational experience? Even accounting for the typically accepted "70% of variance/SES"-- what impact is the other 30% having on this measure? <br />3) At the core we have the question, are the means different? And if the means are different, are they different by more than we would expect simply by chance. I believe the "sandy" foundation is firmer now thanks to comments you (and others) have made and I tried to acknowledge that in my revised statement. <br />IMHO, there is nothing inconsistent with HHS being close to expected at the state level (as you show with your linear regression model using NJ HS data) and lower than expected at the national level using an analysis of means. I am in the process of trying to find the SAT composite averages binned by income level by state but have had no success to date. <br />Again, thank you for the comments and the interaction. Will you be at AERA next week? Dr. Anthony Petrosinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10115534661613149019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post-27283371344603147792014-03-31T14:05:40.661-07:002014-03-31T14:05:40.661-07:00Dr. Petrosino:
1) I'm not anonymous, as the &...Dr. Petrosino:<br /><br />1) I'm not anonymous, as the "About the Jazzman" page above makes clear.<br /><br />2) You could put a dozen statistical tests up comparing HHS's average SAT scores against a particular income group's national average SAT scores, and it wouldn't matter a bit. <i>The comparison is not apt.</i> Regional differences in purchasing power alone would negate the comparison.<br /><br />The better statistical tool is a linear regression using some proxy measure of economic difference against student outcomes, which I have done (admittedly, with the caveat that SAT scores are not great measures of school effects even when accounting for economic differences).<br /><br />3) You used this comparison to take a swipe at HPS, its superintendent, and the president of its board. Aside from just being a plain old cheap shot, your analysis is flawed, which means you criticism is built on a foundation of sand. <br /><br />Cohen's d doesn't change that reality one bit.Dukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16535645107179796099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post-9438858454510860742014-03-31T12:07:01.549-07:002014-03-31T12:07:01.549-07:00I would like to acknowledge and thank a number of ...I would like to acknowledge and thank a number of anonymous bloggers and colleagues who have provided useful data, readings, perspectives, url's, and analysis on this topic. Edits have been made to the original post on 3/23 and 3/24 and now include the use of Cohen's d, effect size, links to free lunch (FL) and free and reduced lunch (FRPL) criteria, deleting of county comparisons (the FL% when including any of the charter schools within the district's borders), explanation of some assumptions, an alternative one-tailed t test analysis, and modifications to some of the original text.Dr. Anthony Petrosinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10115534661613149019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post-70896551259015124532014-03-26T04:56:20.978-07:002014-03-26T04:56:20.978-07:00That doesn't surprise me that he came to TX......That doesn't surprise me that he came to TX...all the grifters and carpetbaggers show up here. :(Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15874390592843842567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post-15692207142214278662014-03-23T20:03:24.743-07:002014-03-23T20:03:24.743-07:00Not really helping?!! He’s been beating the war d...Not really helping?!! He’s been beating the war drums for the Hoboken BoE since they didn't renew his contract. It was discovered Dr. Petrosino was working in Texas while being paid for a full time position as an Assistant to the Superintendent in Hoboken. Sweet, low-show job. Angry that he wasn’t renewed, he sued the district and lost. He actually had to pay some funds back because he simply wasn’t there. That dude has an ax to grind and his blog seems to be focused on bashing the Hoboken Public School district. He’s a board trustee for the HoLa Charter School in Hoboken.sockmonkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08377281406908375373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post-38801549645644045762014-03-23T18:32:50.543-07:002014-03-23T18:32:50.543-07:00Dr. Petrosino, we do, in fact, have "more and...Dr. Petrosino, we do, in fact, have "more and specific data."<br /><br />The 2013 enrollment file shows Hoboken High has 592 students; 411 qualify for FL, which is about 69% (about 81% for FRPL). The district FL% is about 64%.<br /><br />The 47% you cite is from a report I wrote. That is what I termed the "actual" district FL percentage: the overall FL percentage <i>including the sending charter schools.</i> Since you are using these figures to make the case that HPS is not doing a good job, you obviously can't use the children the district is not educating to calculate your FL percentage for HHS. Agreed?<br /><br />So, no, we can't make the "reasonable assumption" you make that comparing a national income group (with no adjustment for regional differences, I will add) to HHS is apt. What we ought to do - what, as I showed, we actually CAN do - is compare HHS to other high schools and make some reasonable attempt to control for economic disadvantage.<br /><br />It turns out that HHS is just about where we'd expect.<br /><br />BTW: I have some serious doubts about your t-test that I didn't really get into. How do you know the variance of the 50 (!) SAT test takers at HHS matches the variance for the 300K in the national population? Do we have any idea how the scores are distributed for the 50 HHS test takers at all? Is it normal? If we don't know, why are we running a t-test?<br /><br />You make an awfully strong assertion here:<br /><br /><i>"It is fair to say based on this data and analysis that students from the Hoboken School District are scoring at levels MUCH lower than expected based on their family income. <br /><br />Recently, Hoboken Superintendent Toback has discussed the so called "segregating" impact of charter schools on the school district. Board President Leon Gold has been quoted discussing the "white flight" occurring in the Hoboken School District because of charter schools. Perhaps these two gentlemen should concentrate on providing a better educational experience for the students already attending their schools and be less concerned with baseless rantings of segregation, "white flight", and a climate of lowered expectations for the students and families they are already underserving. -Dr. Petrosino"</i><br /><br />Doctor, if you are going to charge the HPS with "underserving" their students, I would suggest you'd better have your facts all in a row, ready for a challenge. I gave you such a challenge, and I believe your analysis can't withstand it.<br /><br />The burden of proof, then, is on you. I have shown that HHS is, using your preferred metric, EXACTLY where we would expect it to be.<br /><br />Why should we dismiss my evidence?<br /><br />Dukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16535645107179796099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post-38444007101375880382014-03-23T16:11:53.457-07:002014-03-23T16:11:53.457-07:00I have included Effect size and Cohen d for some a...I have included Effect size and Cohen d for some additional information. If a school has a FREE LUNCH of 47% and a FREE AND REDUCED LUNCH of > 75%, we may not know the exact specifics of the population distribution but we can make some reasonable assumptions. <br /><br />If more and specific data was available, I have no doubt a more detailed analysis could be conducted. <br /><br />I believe comparing a high school and a national income group along the same measure (SAT composite) using a t-test, while not perfect, is reasonable. There are other ways of comparing population means. <br /><br />I agree it would be informative to do such an analysis at the county, state or some other level as well. To that degree, your chart deepens the conversation and is appreciated. But the chart does fall outside the present analysis conducted. <br /><br />Dr. Anthony Petrosinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10115534661613149019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post-4642929513124358062014-03-23T13:40:54.266-07:002014-03-23T13:40:54.266-07:00These edu-bidness, jingoistic views of education a...These edu-bidness, jingoistic views of education are warped. We'll become a third world country if we continue believing charter-cheerleaders fairy tales.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12813056667733621829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post-20623701943594441722014-03-23T13:39:19.602-07:002014-03-23T13:39:19.602-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12813056667733621829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post-43424267153851577542014-03-23T11:03:17.967-07:002014-03-23T11:03:17.967-07:00It is appalling that the pro charter mafia get awa...It is appalling that the pro charter mafia get away with all their propaganda. Thanks to JJ, Diane Ravitch, Bob Braun, Mother Crusader and many others for debunking the mythology and spreading the truth.<br />Side note: There was a tragic and terrible school fire in Edison, the school was completely destroyed. No one was in the school, no one killed or seriously injured, the good news. But Edison schools are so overcrowded they have no idea where they will put the 500 kids who attended that school. Will Christie step in and use the disaster to fire all the teachers and set up 4 charter schools to accommodate the kids from the "failing school?"Giuseppehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03418801372998968620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post-18078973314948725892014-03-23T09:46:48.887-07:002014-03-23T09:46:48.887-07:00Thanks JJ. It is so important to have people decon...Thanks JJ. It is so important to have people deconstruct the BS when these misleading articles are published. The average reader has no idea how statistically significant statistics are arrived at, what a T-test is, etc., etc. The problem, of course, is that we have absolutely no guarantee that the people who read these types of articles have access to or even care to read blogs like the present one which serve to counter the BS that the public is being bombarded with...alas.P. Gruntherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14737485008917583535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9025948832913694345.post-51166635209540252122014-03-23T08:45:10.366-07:002014-03-23T08:45:10.366-07:00Thanks...another great article. Informative! Data ...Thanks...another great article. Informative! Data Driven. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10685408446084686714noreply@blogger.com